Sunday, December 14, 2008

Mumbai: 26/11

Arundhati Roy with another gripping read: (Thanks for the link, Sir Fahad.)
Ms Roy mentions something that hit me and my folks here in Kashmir during the long hours we followed the TV broadcasts. Here's an excerpt:
"Over three days and three nights we watched in disbelief as a small group of very young men armed with guns and gadgets exposed the powerlessness of the police, the elite National Security Guard and the marine commandos of this supposedly mighty, nuclear-powered nation. While they did this they indiscriminately massacred unarmed people, in railway stations, hospitals and luxury hotels, unmindful of their class, caste, religion or nationality. (Part of the helplessness of the security forces had to do with having to worry about hostages. In other situations, in Kashmir for example, their tactics are not so sensitive. Whole buildings are blown up. Human shields are used. The U.S and Israeli armies don't hesitate to send cruise missiles into buildings and drop daisy cutters on wedding parties in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan.) But this was different. And it was on TV."

Exactly. This sort of an 'encounter' would be over in half a day here in Kashmir. Hostages/civilians be damned. Blow up the damn block if you must. But it's easier to just set the building on fire, if you ask me. Okay, let's do that.
Then. Ms Roy makes a mention of one Arnab Goswami, which was a pleasant surprise in a bitter sort of way. This man has infuriated me from the time he's been given that front-runner role for TIMES NOW. (Blehh.) Frothing and foaming at the mouth any time there's a big, dramatic news incident. Check him out in any of TIMES NOW's news broadcasts of a terror attack or a kid stuck in a well, or when interviewing a subject he doesn't like. I've seen him go into scary, straining falsettos of diatribe when he's primed for it. And spouting personal opinion instead of reporting objectively. Well done, Goswami. Where did you learn journalism?


Anonymous said...

Ms. Roy makes an expert point on the tactics of the NSG and Marcos; remind me again when exactly did she serve in these outfits??? Or was it that she saw every thing on TV??? :) And maybe went for a holiday to J&K with a few friends.

I agree completely on the Arnab G point - he needs to let people talk on his show :)

longblackveil said...

Whether she served on these outfits or went holidaying with friends to J&K, she's got it spot on, Sir Anon. How come you disagree? Pray tell.

Arnab Hate Club members welcome. ;)

Anonymous said...

"Sir" Anon ehh :) with such certainity Lady Veil!

Madness it is on the TV - very far removed, i am sure, from what it feels like on ground zero.

The Commandos dont operate this way - Marcos, NSG or Paras - and that is the simple reason for my disagreement.

Back to saving the world now...up up and away :)

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Yayy you're back!

hmmm...Skinny to Kiddo to Sir?

haha. What's next Pretty Skinny?

Aditya said...

interesting link

longblackveil said...

Thanks for the link, Aditya. Though by The Great Bong's own argument, any one with firm beliefs in their own argument can be labelled a fundamentalist, including me and him.

Absolutely disagree on the Arnab Goswami defense. Mr Goswami is a journalist who has no business spouting his personal opinions especially on his own news channel. A journalist is in the business of objectively reporting other people's opinions and the bare facts. This is something our new breed of TV reporters has quite forgotten, give or take a few.

Just for fun, here are some other Arnab fan's, not.:


Aditya said...

Well, more than being a fundamentalist it's about how she changes details to suit her argument. How blatantly she lies.
Come on, you can't look at every thing in black and white.
Her articles are extremely amateurish but written in very good english. Just calling India, America, Israel evil in every issue on the planet and seeing conspiracy theories everywhere makes one look like a kid. If she couldn't use the language as well as she did would people take her seriously? Does she have any intellectual depth and analytical mindset at all?

longblackveil said...

Come on, Mr Aditya.
You aren't going to change my opinion on Arundhati Roy. ;) I am a devoted follower who happens to agree with most of what she says. And my, my, my, she DOES write wonderfully well, doesn't she? No argument there.
Obviously what makes most Indians hate Ms Roy all of a sudden are her uncomfortable views on Kashmir, which, as we all know, India and Pakistan for some reason both feel they have unquestionable property rights over. That however is a whole different argument, which I am too tired to get into now. Fact of point, I am not going to argue Kashmir with anyone who hasn't lived here. The point is moot.
See you around, and let's be nice, please. *shake on it*

Aditya said...

"I am not going to argue Kashmir with anyone who hasn't lived here."

Isn't by the same logic Ms.Roy prohibited from speaking about Kashmir from your point of view? And come on, would I be arguing about Kashmir who quite apparently seems to have strong views on the issue and is quite naturally more acquainted with the area.
As for why I hate Ms.Roy the reason most definitely doesn't have Kashmir there.
Her logic is completely messed up. If 26/11 was a direct consequence of Indian attrocities on Muslims (??) then boy o boy, what should Indians have done to the brits who ruled for 150 years and perpetrated many crimes??
What should the Hindus have done to the Muslims in India as they invaded the country in 1200 and ruled northern India for about 500 years and quite certainly demolished many temples.
The whole point is going back to history this way and looking at things as they way it suits what you want to say is a pointless exercises. Why is Israel wrong in Palestine? They owned the land for 3200 years before the anti-semitic movements? I don't support any state's acts in entirety but when you write an analytical piece what you require the most is sound logic, logic that's consistent.
What people like Adam Smith wrote. He is a legend for his logic.
Where's logic in Ms.Roy? If she goes back to history to justify terrorism then why is there no such thing as Hindu terrorism to the extent that you have jehad?
Why is it that French colonies haven't bombed France?
Why is it that Afriancs haven't bombed UK?
The whole essence of life lies in moving forward and not fighting like a kid about who hit first?
As to feasibility of this study as we go in the distant past is doubtful anyways but a more important point is it's better not done than done the Ms.Roy way, take a few facts, add a few of your own, twist of few of some Mr.X and sit with an oxford dictionary...

longblackveil said...

Aiyaayyayyayay! First things first, I don't stand with anybody who condones terrorism or mindless, cruel acts of terror. But that also doesn't mean I will ignore the CAUSE of terrorist acts which are equally heinous. Terrorism in undoubtedly and inarguably a no-no. So also are skewed State policies, Govt injustices and flouting of the Law by the few in power.

Let's jump to State-sponsored terrorism. I put the Gujarat riots in here, but the Gujarat fiasco is a mere babe in the woods comapred to the old masters in this field, your wonderful Israel.
"Why is Israel wrong in Palestine?" Haaahahaaahaaaa. My dear Mr Aditya, there WAS NO ISRAEL prior to WWI, when the wonderful League of Nations decided to 'create' a land for Jewish people inside Palestine. And then the UN jumped in and Israel came into being only in 1947-1948 against the will of ALL its 'neighbours'. So we have an Israel cared out of Palestine and millions of Palestinians made refugess within their own homes. If that wasn't bad enough, we now have Israel, with the open support of its chaddi-buddy the USA, making its way at will into Palestine and the West Bank (hence Occupied West Bank, sir) etc etc. Please read up on history, sir. Do not confuse the word 'Israel' with the present State of Israel.
[This topic by the by, is far more complex than Kashmir, which is at best a political tug of war between two sulky neighbours (and so what if we have the collateral loss of life of a few tens of thousands of Kashmiris?) Boo hoo.]

Having said that, if you think I think it's okay for Palestinians to go and bomb innocent Israeli civilians, then no, not at all. It's a simple of question of right and wrong. Terrorists are wrong, YES. Governments can be and have repeatedly been unbelievably wrong, oh YES.
So there.

Aditya said...

Although Israel wasn't there the land belonged to the Jews for 3200 years.I don't support the creation of Israel in the first place but my point is that if you chose to follow the discourse of Ms.Roy to consult history then do it honestly. Jews resided in that land and were made to leave in late 1800s. So, when they got a chance they reclaimed the land.
Do I support it? - Of course not the way it was done.
But is there one absolute villain in this issue? - Most certainly not.

Why do the so-called intellectuals then look for binary answers to the questions that don't have them? I haven't seen any great writes have absolute good or bad characters in their works. Is it probably this aspect that makes them great? I would say yes, US is not a saint but it's most certainly not wrong in EVERYTHING as Ms.Roy would want us to believe.

And then after infinitely many direct blatant lies, twisting of facts, illogical conclusions why on earth should we take Ms.Roy at her face value? Agreed that as a comedian she would come close to Wodehouse, whom you like :P but not as a serious writer.
You need have a lot more depth in thought and rational and HONEST mindset to be analytical in such issues.

Another interesting read btw-

longblackveil said...

Hail, fellow, well met! Here we go again.. :)
I tell you, your hatred of Arundhati Roy fails to move me at all. I agree to completely disagree with you. The link you've sent me, I've already read it, thanks. (See what I , by the way- the respected IPS officer who wrote the open letter was suddenly irked out of his passiveness as soon as Arundhati made public her unpalatable, unacceptable and 'disgusting' opinions on Kashmir? She was pretty darned interesting till before that when all of a sudden everything she says must now be looked at suspiciously and with distaste.) ;) I tell you, this attitude never ceases to amuse me.
And now, to the Middle East.

You started off with a shocker: "Although Israel wasn't there the land belonged to the Jews for 3200 years."
Ermmmm? Izzit? Iddiya? How so? Because they marked an 'X' on the ground and said 'Taken' in an unrecorded incident of the bygone era?
Historically and factually, Islam, Christianity and Judaism go almost hand in hand, and Jerusalem is central to all these three major religions of the world. When exactly did 'the land' belong to the Jews? Before Christ? (What land in particular, please? All the land in the Middle East? The Children of Israel [Qur'an and Bible] were originally in Egypt, so I suppose that also would be Jewish? And then, the richest merchants in Arabia at the time of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. also happened to be Jews so I suppose Arabia is originally Jewish?)
In which case America should go back to the Native Americans and all of Australia immediately be returned to the true owners, the Aborigines?

Where are we going with this? Fuggedaboutit. Here we are, two nonentities earnestly discussing the Mid-East conflict at the witching hour. So exciting is the internet.
What next? Late night thinking and debating is all well and good but what of the bags under my eyes? Must one not think of one's fragile looks?
Haw haw. This is very somewhat.
Let us pat ourselves on the back for not flinging mud on each other. You are well-behaved and decent, and I respect you for that. I must tell your parents you are well brought-up.

longblackveil said...

Read here when you have the time.

Aditya said...

"Let us pat ourselves on the back for not flinging mud on each other. You are well-behaved and decent, and I respect you for that. I must tell your parents you are well brought-up."

Thanks! My parents are eagerly awaiting this certification. :P
On a slightly serious note, I am not in the mud-slinging mode at all. You being a kashmiri know the Kashmir issue a lot better than I would. At the same time, why do I have a feeling that you like Ms.Roy just because of her remarks on Kashmir?

And from where does the assumption of what she says was always interesting come from? People have disliked her for ages.

Why do I feel that you like Ms.Roy for nothing else but Kashmir, which is very close to your heart? Must not one think rationally on any such issue? Should I then start running behind Raj's MNS men beating biharis up in my homeland?
Should I beat up bangladeshis in Mumbai for the kind nuisance they create? Is it the way?
When we choose to idolise a person, should we not keep our hearts aside for a moment and just look at what effect do they cast on society?

Why does Ms.Roy never condemn Taliban but always condemns the USA? Is it because saying awful things about Taliban doesn't get you a front page publicity in Guardian which bashing the US does? An Indian author, writing in good English and bashing the Indian state for it's abject misery and draconian laws etc is too good a story for any western media. Is she writing stuff that sells or she wrote something and that sold.

Why on earth does she travel business class if she fights for Narmada victims? Medha Patkar doesn't do that. What else would you call it but hypocrisy?

As for my shocker, here's a quick reference.

And that's exactly I was referring to, that going back to history like this and trying to find the exact point in time is a kiddish exercise. :)

longblackveil said...

Ujjhujju! Nein, Herr Aditya, you have made a double insinuation that I like Ms Roy ONLY since or because of her views on Kashmir, and I must object. No, not so.
I have loved her writing and her rhetoric and her brilliance from way back when and I only like her MORE because of her views on Kashmir, yes. Was pleasantly surprised when she came out openly and said what she wanted to in the face of the inevitable and huge backlash.
As for why Ms Roy does this or that or doesn't do this or that, pleas write another open letter to her and ask her directly. :) I fear I won't be able to give you accurate answers, not being her and all.
(She flies business class? Good for her! How is it hypocritical of her to do so? Because she supports the Narmada Bachao Aandolan, she must forsake her well-earned wealth -which by the by she brings up time and again in her writings; it's not like she's hiding it- and fly Economy so people can relate the two? I don't get it... *scratches head* It is precisely by flying Biz class that she's NOT being a hypocrite.)

Please send snail mail details. Am designing fabulous certificate for 'Well-brought up Baba' as we speak. Should reach you by the time Pakistan self-destructs in a fantastic display of the ridiculous. Meaning any day now.

Aditya said...

Morgen Frau.Veil. Here's my snail mail address where you can send the certificate to. There are 2 main addresses in fact -

C/O Ms.Roy and Mr.Dawood Ibrahim,

C/O Ms.Roy and Mr.Mullah Omar, Mr.Osama Bin Laden

Post to either of these and they'll get to me. :)

Coming to the point of your love for Ms.Roy, true you're not the only one. There are many people who don't really have a satisfactory answer to documentary evidences of her lies, her publicity stunts. Who don't have an answer to why Ms.Roy writes against Indian state, which definitely has wronged on many occasions, but not even once does she write against attrocities by Bangladesh on Hindus, Pakis by Hindus and many others.
As for flying business class, this legendary tradition of hypocrisy started from none other than Mr.Marx who hailed the proletariats for their hard work and damned the bourgeoisies and went on to invest in the US stock market and owning a plush bungalow in UK. Funny indeed!
Why this is hypocrisy? Well, when inflation rose up, I increased my "kaamwali baai"'s salary even when my parents' salary didn't increase. So, if you actually feel for something you might want to compromise some of your luxuries for someone whom you actually care about. Which is why Medha Patkar doesn't fly business class when she very well can through sponsors.
Anna Hazare never does the same.
India is not short of genuine people who actually work devotedly in spite of numerous difficulties posed by the system.
Technically, it's right that she earns money and she has the right to spend it the way she wants...but then by the same logic she shouldn't be complaining about wall street bonuses right. As it is she doesn't understand any economics and finance anyways for if any comrade actually understood this he wouldn't be a comrade but she speaks about that too!

longblackveil said...

So Arundhati should fly Economy because Medha Patkar and this, that and the other does? Sorry, I don't buy that.
Have taken down snail mail address but think it in bad taste.
Am not going to argue with you any longer, seeing as we are not going to get anywhere at all even if we have a go st it for years. I am old and my bones are weary.
On that note, peace out.

Aditya said...

Interesting to see you refer to Anna Hazare as "this,that and the other ones" probably because they don't know how to sell themselves. With all my humility, I would say it won't be that bad an idea after all to know about a few grassroot level revolutionists. Arvind Kejariwal to name another.

And of course, such talks lead you nowhere purely because every person involved is stubborn and thinks about the other person the same.

Yet, I can't stop being amused at your consistent attempts to pick on the Economy class vs Business class argument. Am I to assume that the other ones like twisting facts, lying, maintaining a strong bias while pretending to be neutral and many others are too insignificant when compared with the choice of which class to fly?

In my past about 6 comments or so, I believe I have made it amply clear with evidences about how Ms.Roy has blatantly lied, how she has twisted the history completely, how outrightly biased and one-sided her pictures are and how she breaks down her logic like Mr.Abhinav Kumar says,"The only thing is that after this bloody book-keeping, there may not be anyone left to enjoy the fruits of such a 'just' society. "

If you hate Indian media for portraying Kashmir elections as successful then why should you appreciate Ms.Roy? Does she not give half-baked truth all the time?
The "respected" female comes out openly in support of Mohammad Afzal and the likes for a fair trial as soon as the cases begin. Why does she never feel like at least saying once that Col.Purohit should get a fair trial? Is it just because he's a Hindu and supporting a Hindu is not in vogue.
When India goes nuclear it's a threat to the world but when China makes it it's a people's bomb!

Another interesting extract -

Roy had begun her charter of hate with another damning description:
"Last night a friend from Baroda called. Weeping. It took her fifteen minutes to tell me what the matter was. It wasn't very complicated. Only that Sayeeda, a friend of hers, had been caught by a mob. Only that her stomach had been ripped open and stuffed with burning rags.
Only that after she died, someone carved 'OM' on her forehead".

Shocked by this despicable "incident", I got in touch with the
Gujarat government. The police investigations revealed that no such case, involving someone called Sayeeda, had been reported either in urban or rural Baroda. Subsequently, the police sought Roy's help to identify the victim and seek access to witnesses who could lead them to those guilty of this crime. But the police got no cooperation. Instead, Roy, through her lawyer, replied that the police had no power to issue summons. Thus she hedged behind technical excuses. I took up this
incident in my rejoinder published as Dissimulation In Word and Images
(The Outlook, July 8, 2002).

I am sure a lot of "secularists" would have one answer - police investigations are fake, issue closed or it was indeed a pure work of fiction intended to highlight the heinous crimes in Gujarat! :)

But then, by Ms.Roy's "irrefutable" logic, that was a natural consequence of Godhra!

To conclude, I would think there are much bigger issues that I have raised in my previous posts as well as this one, than economy vs business. It would indeed be a great idea to hear if they make any sense at all.

longblackveil said...

Okay, keep going.
No back-and-forth from this side.